Talk:Gascon dialect

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 6 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Chrismevs.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What about including names of each variant in Occitan ortography? Those names are not: Aranès is in Catalan, and Ariegeois and the others are in French.

Petit

Isn't "little" pichon in Occitan? Is it different in Gascon? --Error 21:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Gascon you can say petit = pichon = pichòt, see Palay's dictionary.--Aubadaurada 23:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quite striking ...

It really strikes me how the Gascon pichòt little is so similar to the Sicilian piciottu child. Is it possible that any Catalonians who colonized Sicily could've spoken Gascon? Just to see if anyone out there knows of anything. Il Studioso 04:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gaskoo?

The bizarre mispronunciation of Gascon was added by User:Kieron a m in June 2006.
Can someone fully conversant in IPA please replace his flight of fancy with the English pronunciation of Gascon?
K-schwa-N, give or take.
Thanks, Varlaam (talk) 20:57, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Move from "language" to "dialect"

I want to note that, after having moved this page from "Gascon language" to the current "Gascon dialect", I wanted to change some links in relevant articles for this page and saw information backing, with academic sources, why Gascon may be considered different from Occitan. I am not an expert on linguistics and much less on Occitan, maybe Gascon should indeed be considered different on Wikipedia, but I think that should be decided through a formal RM and not through a mere move without an edit summary, which is how this article got titled as a language [1]. After all, historically, that Gascon was not an Occitan dialect has been the "fringe" view, and a change to make such a view to make the main one would require more discussion than simply preserving the traditional view. All in all, I believe this move has been positive before anything else and I hope it may bring discussion in this talk page in the case my actions are disputed. Super Ψ Dro 20:50, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Super Dromaeosaurus: However, if there's now a genuine controversy among experts if Gascon is to be classified as a mere "dialect" of Occitan or as a separate language, and not a strong consensus either way (you imply that the separate-language view is no longer "fringe"), the article title should be neutral (WP:NPOVTITLE) and not take any sides in that debate. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hi, I agree with Florian. Personally I hear more and more (e.g. in Chambon [fr]'s papers, among others) that Gascon is a romance language of its own; and the "Gascon dialect" title shows a bias against that (now well-established) view. -- Womtelo (talk) 07:10, 21 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Hello. Please propose a WP:RM for your preferred title. Whether a dialect is actually a language or viceversa is definitively the type of controversial issue that should be decided on through formal processes. Super Ψ Dro 09:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 December 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Gascon dialect be renamed and moved to Gascon (language variety).

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Gascon dialect → Gascon (language variety) – The precise classifcation of Gascon is controversial. While most scholars consider it to be a dialect of Occitan, Posner and Sala note that it is less comprehensible than Catalan (which is typically classified separately from Occitan) to other southern Occitan speakers. Moreover, Gascon has a standardized variety, Aranese, with official status in the Val d'Aran region of Catalonia, which differs from the literary standard of Occitan. Kristol 2023 asserts that Gascon was "already considered a specific language in the Middle Ages," and Carles and Glessgen 2024 refer to Occitan and Gascon as "two languages." As the terms "language" and "dialect" are ambiguous and somewhat subjective, linguists tend to circumvent extralinguistic polemics by using the term "language variety" to refer to a linguistic system. By characterizing Gascon as a "dialect," the current title appears to clash with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality by favouring a traditional but contested view. The term "language variety" would be a more useful characterization, as it would avoid the use of the ambiguous term "dialect," which tends to evoke social, historical, and political considerations rather than strictly linguistic ones. Conocephalus (talk) 15:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. cyberdog958^Talk 18:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bobby Cohn (talk) 21:14, 18 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:40, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Even back during Roman times, there was already a lingustic separation between the Vulgar Latin dialects of Gallia Aquitania and Gallia Narbonensis, which would evolve into the varities of Gascon and Languedocien, respectively. In the sense that the substrate that Gascon had was an older version of the Basque language, while Languedocien have Gaulish substrate. Furthermore, in Narbonensis Roman presence was more ancient and deeper (specifically in 121 BC),^[1] while in Aquitania the Roman influence entered after the Gallic Wars of the 50s BC. This variation in the timeline of Roman influence and the different substrates contributed to distinct identities for Narbonensis and Aquitania. These distinctions in identity evolved to the point that Duchy of Aquitaine and the County of Toulouse were separate entities, with each referring to their languages differently as mentioned above. Therefore, it would not make sense to classify Gascon as a dialect; the similarities observed are more a result of geographical proximity than of shared ancestry. In my perspective, Gascon should be classified as an independent but debated branch of the Ibero-Romance family, just like Navarro-Aragonese and its descendant Aragonese is. Mr. Information1409 (talk) 16:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't disagree with what Conocephalus and Mr. Information1409 assert regarding Gascon. It certainly has been seen as a different language from Occitan since the 12th century. Yet there is not a single other Wikipedia article with "language variety" in the title. Gascon language would be more acceptable to me. I think if you are concerned about what readers may infer from "dialect", you should be equally concerned about what readers may infer from "Gascon (language variety)". Srnec (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're right Smec, if Gascon was already regarded as a separate language, then the new name should be "language" and not "language variety". Mr. Information1409 (talk) 01:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This distinction is controversial at many levels, both politically and academically, see the page history preserved here for how it has been playing out at Wikipedia. Andrewa (talk) 19:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Should this article be moved to Gascon language? There appears to be low support for the (language variety) disambiguator, and I see less discussion than I'd like for an article that's been moved multiple times. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:40, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Spain, WikiProject Languages, and WikiProject France have been notified of this discussion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:50, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It's very likely Gascon language/dialect is the primary topic for the term "Gascon", in which case this page can be moved to "Gascon", and the existing disambiguation page there can be moved to Gascon (disambiguation). That way this article's title doesn't have to take a stance in the "language or dialect" issue. Erinius (talk) 09:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Maddison, Angus (2007), Contours of the World Economy 1–2030 AD: Essays in Macro-Economic History, Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 41, ISBN 9780191647581.

[maddy-1] Maddison, Angus (2007), Contours of the World Economy 1–2030 AD: Essays in Macro-Economic History, Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 41, ISBN 9780191647581.

[1]